Dissecting "Dissect" and Arts Victory Lap with Cole Cuchna

Words by Matthew Spence:

Before you head out for your usual Friday store run of milk, Cheez-Its, and a Bible so that your prayers of that cute store clerk being at the register when you check out can come true, stop by your local bulletin board and pay close attention to your street light posts. You’ll see posters for the upcoming boxing match between Older Gen Purtists and the new adaptive gen. It’s a battle that’s never-ending and won’t until “We’re Not Going to Take It” by Twisted Sister is blaring and the revolution happens but is not televised. The gap between the two sides, along with the addition of society’s strong arm on individuality, helps remind us that the disrespect and dismissiveness towards the art of modern times isn’t an illusion but our reality, especially when it comes to the education system. Leaving to dwell, at the end of the day, it may change lives, save lives, and grow the mind, but that isn’t what society needs for its capitalistic world. Hence why when a school has a budget cut, the first ones to go are the art programs and music programs because they’re “non-essential.” I could go on with a PowerPoint, like Rue and Jules, but to keep it brief on there: it blows shit.

Yet, even with the glimpse of hope in the academia of music many have, there’s still somewhat of a gap. Music has evolved, and composition has sweetened, but yet there’s a pigeonhole on classical music and dead white guys from centuries ago (they were all probably racist anyway, tbh). That’s not to say their contribution isn’t valid nor important; however, there’s only so much enjoyment, reliability, and investment the continuing evolving gen will get when it comes to pieces from Bach and Chopin. To put it more bluntly, the disconnect is valid; that shit can feel ancient, especially if you’ve been listening to J Dilla and St. Vincent before class. Can we throw in an 808 or a synthesizer or something?

It’s not like there hasn’t been compelling music that helps explore the intricacies of theory since Beethoven. The ins and outs of what musicians can do and use to create their art and reflect their current world. Releasing projects and songs that you elucidate on their majestic nature. From rock, hip-hop, R&B, and whatever else is on the musical kaleidoscope. So when learning music composition, and you’re trapped in a specific timeline with art that’s arguably dated in terms of reach, you’ll feel like a kid who’s with their mom shopping, hoping she brings them to Gamestop. Arguably, cause, of course, there are plenty of people who enjoy that kind of music as well (shout-out to y’all). I know firsthand; I took a music class in college but didn’t learn shit about Mitski, Childish Gambino, Solange, “He Who Shall Not Be Named” West, and so on, but instead it was music that wasn’t pleasant to my ears. In fact, I got a way better understanding of music theory and structure outside of class, studying artists that I love and that push boundaries in their own way.

Now, of course, there are some teachers out there in the country who decide to blend both or have a class dedicated to the music of popular culture of today. Even in Georgia, there was a course dedicated to OutKast in 2017. However, these are more of an exception and not the norm, especially when it comes to hip-hop. Once again, to keep it brief on that point: it’s the biggest culture that’s still misunderstood (shout-out to Lupe Fiasco and his college course, btw!). There are people out thirsty to learn and explore but yet have fun while exploring the music they love. Yet, in the world of arts and music, one man took it upon himself to bridge the gap between classical music analysis and music of the modern era, giving contemporary music the flowers they deserve and the proper respect they earn. Beyond an anniversary post or a 10/10 review. Breaking an album and song to see its DNA and atoms. Cole Cuchna meet Dissect Podcast. Dissect meet Cole. Everyone say hi to the person next to you.

If you’re walking around in the right music neighborhoods, in particular, the hip-hop side of the internet borough, you’ve most def (or Mos Def), stumbled upon a clip or two of Dissect after scrolling past a J.I.D. stan page post and a Drake meme. 30 seconds to 1 minute, we see a piece of music broken down into certain aspects.

Whether it discusses the nuances in production, the brilliance, and the dopeness of a bar, or anything in between, the art is unfolded and flexiblized to where even acrobats would give up their gold like Milli Vanilli, but it goes deeper than those clips.

Dissect is a podcast (who’s home is Spotify) series that has depth upon depth musical analysis that bridges the gap between classical musical academia and contemporary music. Cole takes an album or song and breaks it down piece by piece, note by note, bar for bar, examining everything that it has to offer. In the same way, music students would learn about composers of centuries past. Debussy, Mozart, and Chopin get praise in classrooms, but artists like Beyoncé, Tyler, the Creator, Mac Miller, etc., get the same treatment. He could probably breakdown the genius of Lil B. With 13 seasons that include breakdowns of Frank Ocean’s “Blonde,” Beyoncé’s “Lemonade,” Tyler, the Creator’s “IGOR,” and much more.

On the split side, in these analyses, he offers theories and interpretations alongside stuff that may be more concrete: on certain musical details, lyrical meaning, and all in all, opening a healthy musical discourse that people may not have even taken into consideration. Offering the best of both worlds (peace to Hannah Montana), if your ear is drawn to the instrumentation and production, then you’d be geeked to learn the instrumentation breakdown. If you gravitate more towards the lyrics and songwriting, he’s got you covered with the lyric breakdown. Are you infatuated with the story behind the album? Feel free to take his card cause he does Chinatown level of investigation to help give context to the making of and behind the art’s existence. No matter what side you fall on, you all intersect and learn and hopefully grow to appreciate that particular album even more than when you first started the season/episode.

100% art. No focus on polemical convos or “not just gossip center”. Case in point, his breakdown of Kendricks “euphoria“. Focused on the bars and actively avoided discussing the allegations against Drake and his camp outside the acknowledgment around the bar.

Some may see all that it entails and probably wonder, “All that?… Fuck I’m glad I’m the fan, cause that schedule would give me high blood pressure and crow’s feet” and to that I say: “That’s fair g”. With extensive research, writing, studying, and living with the album for so long, he might as well make it go half on the electric bill. Often recreating pieces of the music, it’s safe to say it’s more than a plate full but a buffet. Being a one-man team (primarily at least) isn’t the easiest, but it’s all worth it. It’s almost a decade since its’ launch (2016), and he’s in the middle of his latest season. Season 13, Kendrick Lamar’s “Mr. Morale and The Big Steppers.” If you’re familiar with this album, I’d advise you to have your therapist on hold while you listen (or watch as it’s now officially on YouTube) to each episode because boy, my boy, it most def will be a heavy one to sit through, but it’s all for the art yo!

Ranging from Radiohead, Lauryn Hill, and Bo Burnham, Dissect isn’t closed off to genres. Music, as a whole, is the main love. However, a good chunk of the analysis is Hip-Hop and R&B, which can understandably raise people’s eyebrows. Specifically, Black people’s eyebrows. Dr. Umar’s blood vessel would pop like a pyro if he knew about the Dissect Podcast. I can’t even sit here and lie; I had a slight side-eye in the beginning when finding out about the podcast a few years back. White man breaking down To Pimp a Butterfly? On paper, that sounds like a Funny or Die skectch.

However, when you dissect Cole and his platform, you’ll see the layers and levels of respectfulness he gives and the pampering he treats the Black art he discusses and the culture he’s been around for years (one of his first CDs was Wu-Tang Forever: Fun Fact). Without giving a sense of entitlement, ownership, big-headedness, misguided awareness, or a level of comfortability that makes me, you, him, or her, scream for gatekeepers. Because I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: When white people get too comfortable is when shit goes wrong. Regarding fans, artists, you name it, yo.

Has he always been perfect at it? No, not necessarily nor does he consider himself perfect at it now. He has some gripes with some of his early dissection. In particular, with his To Pimp a Butterfly season. “I definitely used the term ‘Black on Black violence’ and look back and cringe on that verbiage.” But his awareness to reflect and learn on his naivety, so to speak, is the best indicator that he knows he can do better and takes to the task to do better every time. Whether 10 years in, blink before you know it, 20 years in of experience. No matter, the skill advancement, he’ll continue to appreciate and learn from the world the artist brings him to, while understanding that he can’t 100% understand. He’s completely ok with that, and so he applies that slight disconnect for the better. That’s something I appreciate and I assume others can as well. “I can understand it [TPAB] from a conceptual level, but, by no means, understand it on a true lived experience level.”

He’s forever been a fan and isn’t trying to hop in and out when it’s convenient, but instead, just being a fan of the music of many without limiting himself or the viewers/fans. Hip-Hop, R&B, Alternative: Dissect has been building a world of fine art and perspective molding. Can it be that it was all so dope? Well, if only, Cole, now in his early 40s, still has more to achieve with Dissect, but it took some time to get here.

Learning about Coles come-up goes beyond the usual biography but instead deserves an audio biography in “Last Call” style.

The College Dropout

Out in mid-90s L.A., Sunburn was a 13-year-old getting his ass handed to him by his brother and listening to the Pharcyde skateboarding. Finding himself while at the same time losing himself. While out in late 90s Sacramento, a 13-year-old Coles’s journey would begin as he got his first guitar, and like everyone, he tried to be like Hendrix but had to start small by trying to learn a Goo Goo Dolls song first (personally, I thought he was more of a Third Eye Blind kid). Adolescence would continue, and by the time 18 rolled around, he was officially a high school graduate, soon to go to college. However, like a lot of people fresh into the real world, college wasn’t what felt right but instead felt like a responsibility thrown upon you when you don’t know 100% why you should be there. “I hated it,” as Cole once spoke in another interview. School spirit didn’t kick in yet, so he dropped.

No “aww,” because after some time for himself and experiencing life post-high school, Cole would enroll again.

Going back to take classes that he actually enjoyed, while he didn’t have a set goal, these classes were opening up a world he was getting more and more enamored with by the lesson. However, he would drop out again.

No, no, no, this time was for a dream, “He who shall not be named” West once said, “I could either let these dream killers kill my self-esteem or use my arrogance as a steam to power my dream.” So, Cole decided that if he was gonna make it with his band (Red Top Road), he’d have to give it 100% and go all in. So he wrote a letter to his parents, Good Will Hunting style, and he had to see about a dream. However, after a couple of years, he felt that the window of reality was closing with blackout curtains, so he decided to pack up his gear and go back to school.

Can y’all shut up?!?! Jesus.

Late Registration

Like an aircraft marshall, Cole guides us to remind ourselves that it’s never too late to figure it out, as society perpetuates that you should have everything figured out in your early 20s and late teens, even earlier in some countries. Gigging days behind him, his mind was made up on what he needed to be there for. Music. Study what you love, yo. However, there was a level of worry and insecurity being around peers who were more formally trained, while he at most had DIY self-taught training. Combined with his love of education, he’d lay out everything to finally get a degree in Music Composition in Theory at Sac. State. The first step to the pivotal moments

Graduation

It’s 2015; life was rock steady. He had graduated, had a daughter, and was listening to solid 2015 releases, but there was one project that set a chain reaction. If Cam’Ron is owed a big ass thank you for inspiring Rap Genius, then Kendrick Lamar is owed a hug and a smile for lighting the firework for Cole’s brain to dissect. Due to listening to “To Pimp A Butterfly” during its first week of release while holding his newborn. Opening the can of geek worms to learn and explore the album more than the average person was doing at the time. Patience and build-up would all pay off as 2016 would mark the official season of Dissect. All centered around the aforementioned Kendrick album. The first season is the epitome of a passion project with no thought of a result. From the writing, research, and recording in his closet. Fuck a budget; whether it has mass appeal, as long as I’m proud of it, I’m going for it. His debut was pretty strong, but would season 2 be his sophomore slump? Season 2 would focus on “My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy” by who…you know who the fuck I’m talking about… That season would be the big break. Offers coming in like gangbusters and being thrown like spirals, but finally he chose and made the rest of his history.

Spotify.

Now, it’s 2025; Cole has taken Dissect and expanded it to a few heights he probably didn’t envision. Reaching people that he probably wouldn’t expect. Named “Best Podcast of 2018” by the New York Times and “Top 50 Podcasts of 2018” by The Guardian. Pop Culture A- Listers from LeBron James reposting a clip. Tyler, the Creator (slightly) co-signing one of Dissect’s theories on Twitter. Interviewing the now Grammy-winning artist Doechii or comedian Hasan Minaj. Sending us a reminder that no matter how niche it may be, if you care about it, you’ll find your audience. Dissect certainly has: earning respect from the hip-hop fans and everyone in between who cares, nurtures, and gives art they love the time, appreciation, and love it deserves. A “victory for art,” you could say. Cause when it’s all said and done, when we’re gone, the art will carry on and reach the future gen. It’s important they are taught to give their music the same love and treatment. Give it flowers.

Geeks get to unite, and the open-minded get to learn with Dissect. Being both an open-minded geek, I got to chat with Cole of Disset for an hour and 30 minutes. Ask him a few questions for a Q&A about his latest season, the Kendrick vs. Drake beef, and other stuff from our cool convo that may or may not make the interview.

Enjoy! Or not, I don’t know; do what you want; I’m just here.

How do you go about/deal with dissecting albums that are heavy in subject matter? Is it emotionally taxing?

There’s def a number of layers, but generally speaking, even if it’s difficult, the most powerful art is difficult, and so as much as it is emotionally taxing to think about and write. You know this album [Mr. Morale] is set to consume the majority of my working life for 8 months essentially. So I understand why you asked that question, but that’s the reason why I love the album, because it does go so deep. It does confront the things not a lot of us necessarily want to but need to. So honoring that about the album, I thought is really important, you know, as much as it’s emotionally taxing at times. Whatever I gotta do to best honor the artist. I’m willing to do, for sure.

Favorite season of Dissect you’ve done?

I’d say the first couple are special. The first season of TPAB. That was the origin of it and figuring it out what the show was. It was fun and interesting, and I didn’t have an audience yet, so there was a purity to that I appreciate. Season 2 was special because it was the breakout, and it changed my life. This current one, I’d say, the timing of it has been great cause Kendrick is having such a moment, and it’s been the most challenging season, but also kinda been the most rewarding season.

Music Theory: EGBDF

Every. Good. Boy. Deserves. Fudge/Every. Good. Boy. Does. Fine.

How did you remember?

Oh, the first one.

The importance of teaching through art/culture? Do you think people should adapt to it more?

Yeah, it’s important, especially to young people. That’s why the artists I chose for the show are so valuable, cause these are the ones I feel are balancing that line between really high art, concept, and themes, but also making commercially viable music, and I think that’s a hard balance to find. I think the Super Bowl [Kendrick Lamar halftime performance] is the power of that balancing that, like, how rare is it to have something so artful and thematic, and people are just waiting and waiting to consume everything about it? Like, that’s awesome and powerful.

Do you hope your fans are using your podcast for good and not evil? (aka: Being a pretentious smartass and know-it-all all)

Yeah, I hope my show presents itself as not pretentious, but it’s hard for me to judge how it comes off. You know, I think that’s with a lot of things; you know, once you become more knowledgeable about something, there’s a temptation for your ego to get ahold of your knowledge gain and use it to prop yourself up. But reflecting back on my younger self, I’ve definitely fallen for that before. The ego will use those to do its thing, but I think anyone tuning into what ends up being a 10-hour-plus analysis of one album probably has a certain personality type, and I hope they’re just there to learn and appreciate the art.

How important is the idea of patience for you? When you take into consideration finding your career venture and success in your early 30s in a world that pressures you to have it all together/achieve it being in your 20s or younger? Plus, patience for fans because there are big gaps and time between seasons.

I get that aspect of it; there’s even patience in consuming episodes. But that is something I try to harp on in terms of always giving yourself an at-bat at success. You know when you’re in your 20s, that’s the time you feel like you should be making moves or trying to succeed. Then what I feel with people getting older around me, you find a job, you just get comfortable, or you stop trying. Me as a creative, that was not really an option, because I’d just get sad when I wasn’t doing anything creative. Even when I had a full-time job that had some creative elements to it, it wasn’t exactly what I wanted to be doing. It was hard for me to leave, but if I had swallowed that creative instinct, which a lot of people do when they get older, I would not be doing what I do now.

It’s one of those things where it’s like I understand not everyone has the need to do that. Some people are genuinely content to just find a job and just cruise, but for the people that feel like they wanna do something they’re quite not doing, age should not be a limiting factor. There’s always an element of luck and timing; there’s more to the equation than “just do something good.” Dissect is an example. Give yourself a chance to get lucky, and you can only do that by trying.

What Red Top Road song would you dissect if you had to choose?

That’s funny; I don’t even remember a lot of the songs. I guess…what was the first song on the album? Deadbolt Rodeo? I don’t even remember the words anymore <laughs>. I don’t really look back too much, so I can’t remember. I remember some vaguely but not too many.

Creative Burnout vs. Imposter Syndrome: Which affects you more?

Let’s see. They’re definitely both a thing, that’s for sure. I think I kinda gotten over the imposter syndrome thing, but that’s something that a lot of people deal with, you know. Suddenly, your voice means something, but not really in the grand scheme of things, but suddenly you have thousands of people listening to what you have to say. That brings up some insecurities and makes you reflect on stuff. I think creative burnout is the thing, especially as someone doing this full-time. I never don’t like the analysis, but it is, you know [you’re a writer, so you know] I write like 6 hours a day, 5 days a week. That can be taxing. Plus, social media can be taxing, and promoting it and trying to engage. Figuring out the video component and having to watch myself every episode, not only listening to myself but looking at myself, has been something to adapt to for sure <chuckle>. So yeah, creative burnout is where I struggle with more.

How did it feel to get an unreleased MF DOOM released on your platform?

That was Dope! That was one of the milestones. If you would’ve told me, however many years ago, cause I’ve been a DOOM fan for a long time, that I would be in a position to host something like that. It’s one of those where you sit back and think, “That’s pretty cool.” That was definitely a cool moment.

What was your “I made it” moment?

That’s a good one. I think the one that comes to mind first would be after season 2, and podcast networks were interested in doing something with the show. I think the thing to the “I Made It” moment is when Spotify reached out; they flew me down to L.A., and I specifically remember when I got to the flight to meet the executives, they had one of those drivers where they had one of those drivers where you get picked up at the airport. With your name on a card, as silly as it sounds, it was “Holy shit, this is kinda crazy.” I’m in L.A. and about to ride in the back seat; it wasn’t a limo, but all this from a fucking podcast? That nerdy dissect analysis. Sometimes, hearing the show reached an artist; that’s always cool. I’ve had a few of those moments that seem surreal. Like you spend all that time analyzing someone’s art and for your work to reach them. It’s cool.

Biggest reach you’ve had confirmed?

Yeah, I don’t know; no artist has given me direct feedback like that for sure. But funny enough, for the short-form videos I was doing for a while, I can understand people’s doubt cause it’s presented in like 60 seconds, and you’re not getting the full context. But one that was pretty viral was a Joey Bada$$ breakdown and tons of comments saying, “I’m reaching,” then Joey commented on it himself and said something to the effect to confirm.

How do you navigate being respectful/showing respect regarding the Black art/subject matter/culture you dissect without overstepping boundaries?

That’s definitely something I’ve thought about and hopefully gotten better at, like even in season 1. More, I don’t know if I overstepped the boundaries, but more of a naivety, I guess, in my approach to what Kendrick was saying on TPAB. Where I feel like if I did that season over again with more experience and more education on those subjects, I could’ve done a lot better job with it. But my thing is, I always understand I’m an outsider, and that is something I try to keep in mind. Even the Morale season, where it def gets into very specific experiences that I just don’t have experience with myself, personally, but it also goes back to my belief, and this is why I really feel comfortable in doing an analysis of Black art. You can be an outsider and learn from it, genuinely, if you actually listen to it and do the research that it requires to get a better understanding. Not a complete understanding, which brings us back to your earlier question about the whole “art to educate” is something I’m incredibly passionate about and why I don’t critique. You won’t find criticism on Dissect ever, particularly on the scripted episodes. When you’re inviting yourself to dinner, you don’t critique the chef.

Hip-hop is such a rich and dynamic art form. Dissect is by no means a comprehensive or complete analysis of this music. I think it gives you one perspective and hopefully an educated perspective from a musical standpoint, but you can do a whole other series, specifically from another lens. I’m just trying to add to a wider convo, not to be the end-all, be-all, by no means. What I hope comes through is my deep, authentic love for this art form. That’s really what I’m trying to communicate.

[During this portion of the interview, we discussed his “Last Song Standing” series, where he and a guest go through an artist’s catalog and decide their best song. We discussed his future with a possible “Tyler the Creator” episode; my dumbass lowkey wasted interview time by geeking over OKAGA,CA being his best song in my opinion, so by the last questions he needed to head out, and I had to speed run, but luckily I learned from the best. Nardwuar ]

What’s Next?

Really, for the foreseeable future, trying to finish this [Morale] season, it’s gonna be a long one. It’s going to be 18 episodes, almost a season and a half our usual season length. Then we’ll do another season of the “Last Song Standing” this summer; we’ll see which artist we’ll land on. What I’m thinking about doing for the next mini-season, since it’s the 25th year of the 21st century, is I thought it might be cool to do a mini-series on the best 10 songs or albums of the first quarter century and just do one song or album from different artists. Just spread it out a bit; that’s something I’m planning; we’ll see.

Have you given up on the Frank Ocean album?

Yeah, kinda <laughs> he’s directing a film right now, so it doesn’t seem like a new album is on his radar unless he’s gonna make his album the soundtrack to it or something.

Be sure to Follow Dissect on whichever platforms you’re on usually. Listen and Watch on Spotify and YouTube. Remember not to stack records on top of each other, the pressure isn’t good for it’s condition.